Vikki: Welcome to the podcast Authors of the Pacific Northwest, where I connect authors with their readers. We also talk all about the authors inspiration, their journey to publication, and the authors will educate me and you the listener all about the business of writing. I'm your host Vikki, J Carter also known as The Author's Librarian. Hi there listeners. It's the host of producer Vikki J. Carter of this podcast, the Authors of the Pacific Northwest. And before we jump into the episode, I wanted to stop real quickly and share with you the newest project that I'm working on. If you are an author, I think you might be interested in it. I have a YouTube channel that I just launched called The Author's Librarian on YouTube. And on that YouTube channel, I am going to share with you free, accessible resources that you can use to help you with researching. I'm going to give you tips. I'm also interviewing librarians and I'm writing a book to help authors with researching. So you hope you find me there on that YouTube channel. You can find the link in the show notes. Now let's get to the program.

Vikki: Listeners, thank you so much for coming back to the Author's of the Pacific Northwest and this episode I am thrilled to bring back on Bill Kenower or William Kenower is I'm writing thing, but I will be calling him Bill. And bill has become one of my friends and almost a mentor in writing. So, Bill, Hi to everyone.

Bill: It's good to be back.

Vikki: I am so glad to have Bill back because we were just talking before we hit recorded. I think I recorded my first episode with Bill, it was episode 80. So we are now 108 episodes. So that's quite a bit back. And I probably recorded in January of 2020. It came out February of 2021 right before the pandemic. So we got a lot of catch up on right though?

Bill: Yeah, though. Wow. That's kind of been... a lot has happened. A lots has happened for me and the world.

Vikki: Right? Yeah. Well, let's talk about what happened for you first. So where were what happened in the last year for you?

Bill: I published a book. I published another book for writers called Everyone Has What It Takes; A Writer's Guide to the End of Self Doubt. And it came out to first from penguin. And it's just great, very excited. I'm gonna be teaching. I don't know when this is going to air, we're talking on the 20th of July in two days, I will be doing an all day workshop for the Writer's Digest yearly conference. And Everyone Has What It Takes all day workshop that was supposed to be in New York. They went virtual. So we're going to keep it, we'll be doing it virtual again. So very excited, you know, it's out and I haven't done a big tour with it because it's still things are still a little wonky. And so, but it's just, I'm so thrilled to have it out so glad to share it. It's been a project that has been in the works and one way or another for like a decade, in a way. So it's very exciting,

Vikki: You do a lot of writing coaching besides you know, you do a lot of teaching for Writer's Digest. You have your own magazine, your own whole podcast, which I'm going to be coming on soon. I can't wait. And, we get to flip the script. But so does this book home from you doing a lot of coaching with authors and writers because self doubts a huge element.

Bill: It is, it's of, yes, it did come from that in a way I, I originally was going to be called a... it was going to be a memoir called No One is Broken and it was going to be based on my experience with raising a son who's on the autism spectrum and that language, that perception of a world without broken people, people you need to fix people that something inherently wrong with them that stood between them and sort of a full life, whatever that was, whether it was physical limitation or things like autism and whatever it is, or a writer who's not publishing, which was the case for me at that time. And so I wanted to call that. And I posted a piece this the New York times called it, No One I Broken, which was great . And it had a nice, you know, reception.

Bill: I really wanted to write a memoir about that. But, this is a little lesson to your listeners, if they're interested. The words no one is broken was a statement that a realization that came to me... but it's not a story. It's not a story. And even though there was, I tried to find one to fit that around that message, which I really believed in. It was really a struggle. And many people got interested. Many agents tried and many publishers were pretty interested and couldn't quite get it. But in the meantime, I would be giving talks to writers. I'm always, you know, I published Fearless Writing a book called Fearless Writing a few years back and I'd written a book called Write Within Yourself before that. And so I was out there in the world of writing community. And my thing is always the emotional challenges of writing as opposed to the craft of writing story permanently.

Bill: And I found myself telling a lot of stories about my son, who's called Jack in this book and talking about... I realized that the message of no one's broken was so relevant to writers because writers often wonder if they have what it takes. What is that talent? Usually we call it talent. And in the world of creativity, Vikki, it is not kind, but there is a sense of division between haves and have nots, really like the ones who have it and the ones who don't. Snd like, "Hey man, you know that's the way the cookie crumbles" kind of thing. And as I would talk about Jack and raising a kid on the spectrum and and about answering the question of whether you have what it takes or not I came to see that the two things really overlapped. And when I... it was my wife who said, well, actually I talked about everyone having what it takes and how I give that talk every once in while she's like, "Well, that sounds like a book."

Bill: And so it became a book for writers, a series of long essays about that idea of sort of inherent equality. And the end of self, a writers ended with self doubt. Because the greatest doubt, the greatest doubt writer has, I think the most fundamental is, "Do I have it or don't I" because if you don't have it, you can't do it.

Bill & Vikki: Right? How do you know if you have it? Okay, let me know you have it unless you knew it.

Bill: And then you can believe me.... you can still, you can write one. What if you don't have for the next one? You just got lucky, blah, blah. Right?

Vikki: Good. Talking about this a bit, after... I apologize for the dogs are out of the studio. So it's my life...I just finished the self production of my first book, like the whole gamut, the assigned to go self production on this one, that kind of feel it all out. See what it's like. And it got it out there. Great reviews. Great you know reception. And now I'm like, I, I have so much self doubt almost every single day I'm getting like these awesome, cool things happening. People want to hear about, you know, the book and stuff. But I think I was talking to my daughter, who's an artist too. And I said through the production of it all being done, putting myself totally into it. And then at the end of it, it's like, okay, now what? You know, now it's like this emptiness of almost depression, like of now, what do you do? You know? Of course he started the next project.

Bill: You started the next project and you know, you, you can, the thing is, and it's harder with, this step in it. And I go through it too. You know, I was a big dream to get this book out and then it came out and it's always kind of a let down because you know, it's not, and also these kinds of books, aren't the kind of books, like a say a fiction book where there's a kind of like reviews and stuff. People don't reviews review these types of books or bloggers, but you know, it's not that Amazon reviews, but not newspaper reviews or that kind of thing.

Bill: I don't read Amazon reviews if I can avoid it. And so, so I go through it to the thing you want to learn to do is to bring the same sort of creativity to the sharing of the work that you do to the production of it and the writing of it. The difference is that when you're writing it, the creativity, the steps are so immediate it's idea, translation into sentence, or if you're producing it like, okay, I need to hire an editor and you can really get your hands in it.

Bill: It feels like, whereas the sharing of it and seeing it flourish requires a little more, there's a little more mystical kind of aspect to it. You have to, first of all, tap into wanting to share it and see what ideas come to you and trust that sort of the right people will find it and they'll share it, but you really want to stay focused on your desire for it to flourish and to grow and know that ideas for how to do that will come to you. But it's easy to think Well, it's out of my hands now" and I just gotta, you know, there's no, I can't, I can't be connected to the... to how well it does out there...how often read. But you can, but it just requires a different kind of focus.

Vikki: I think the focus that I shifted on it really comes to the self-doubt because my book is for authors as well. And it's about researching and it a topic we all talk about, but it's not a topic we really talk about. It's like, "Oh, I researched. But you know, I kind of went down the rabbit hole..." and then, but to have some clear discussion about great researching and how it benefit a writer, that's my mission. Right? And it's almost like, I feel like I have to educate a lot of authors, which finding myself too, which I love. But, I think it comes down to that self doubt that I think you might address. I will be reading your books so you know this. But the thing about self doubt is that I'm okay with producing when I'm in control of everything. But to get that message out there, that's when I start doubting myself. I'm like, somebody is going to be like "what is she talking about?"

Bill: Yes, somebody is not gonna like it. Somebody is gonna say, why did she write it? I don't understand. I don't like it. Why did s she write it's right. And you know, it's going to happen. Everyone who's ever published or shared anything has someone does not like this stuff. And usually when you don't, they don't like it. They don't see the value of it. They just don't perceive the value of it. You know, and so for my kind of stuff that I write, you know, there are writers who really just want, like, give me the nuts and bolts, give me the steps I can follow. And, you know, everyone has what it takes. Like, everything you need is in the title. Like, that's it like, you know, like you could end it right there, but I understand the mind kind of rebels against it. And so I write a series of chapters to help remind you of like, yes, yes, yes...

Bill: You really do. You really do. Everyone really does everyone really Because I need reminding we all need reminding of it. And, but if you're looking for, you know, seven steps to finishing your book in three months or whatever it is, that's fine. If you want to do that, like, you're not going to find it in my book. And you may, if you're that kind of reader, you're not going to like it. So that's where we all have to contend with that. You know, we all have to contend with it and try and you have to, you have to, when in doubt, when in doubt, you have to go into why you wrote it. And you think about all the mistakes people have made is in your case... around research and not understanding the value of research and not understanding how to like you really go to the problems people have with it.

Bill: And then you think about how that answers those questions. And for me, I think about what it's like to think I don't have what it takes or think some do. And some don't and how hard it is to live that way. And like, yes, I, I want to remember that everybody has what it takes it. So I wrote as much. So that's where you have to go. And that, you know, that is enough if you can trust it, cause you're not going to ever get more secure than when you remember why you wrote it. Like that is the, that even no matter how much praise people heap on you, no matter how many copies you sell it's that, it's where it came from. That is your real source of security.

Vikki: And that I think plays not just the nonfiction writers, that really the literary fiction world too, because there's a story inside somebody that's burning in them and they have to write it. I've heard that a million times and not everybody's gonna like that genre . They're going to pick fans. They might not, but they have to remember they wrote that story they needed to tell it. And I think that's a beautiful thing to remember.

Bill: It's true of every sort, every kind of writer... doesn't matter if you write poetry, romance, steam punk, vampire, lesbian romance, literary fiction, memoir... it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It's all you... this is the thing you have to remember about when you're writing is you perceive the value in something. So the value in doing a certain kind of research, the value in the emotional experience of being a writer, which is really what I'm so interested in, of creating something on purpose or romance or science fiction, you see the value in it and then you, you share it. You've tried to translate. I always think of it like this, you know, Vikki. It's like, if it's as if there's like a diamond in you, like that's the valuable thing, this beautiful, but it only exists in you and you with your words, create it out in the world so everyone can see that diamond.

Vikki: Yes, exactly. I love that picture. That's fantastic. And it doesn't just pertain to authors. I think your book is for artists in general.

Bill: People, humans it's for a human being because everyone, Vikki, everyone has what it takes.

Vikki: Great, great. My kids, they swore that they thought at a time when they were younger...when they went to school and they're like, "Wait, isn't everyone artistic? Don't they all have creative juices and them?"... because I raised them that everybody has a flow of art in them. They didn't have to find what that art is and express it. And then they got the school and it was like, "No, not everybody has that..." and our girls were like, "You know, my mom said..."

Bill: Yeah, there's a kind of, yeah. It's, it's, it's weird. What school is good in school is not so good. There's a lot of things in school that are very problematic. A really good teacher can, can mitigate those challenges, but there is a one size fit, all nature of it that really contrary to the human experience. It's not that you can for now, this is what we got. Yeah.

Vikki: So the book is really focusing in on self-doubt... but that everybody has that artistic ability. It is geared for writers, right?

Bill: It's it's so it's written towards writer, but I mean, I was thinking about this. Because if it, if I had to write the whole title out is too long, it would be, Everyone Has What It Takes To Succeed At The Thing They Love To Do.

Bill: So I focus on writers cause that's my platform. But if it's painting, if it's dancing, if it's entrepreneurial stuff, if it's gardening, if you can succeed everyone, if you like to do something, if you're interested, you have what it takes to succeed at that. Like that is the, it is the, intersection of your interest in your imagination, your acute.

Bill: And so here's, here's an interesting e

Vikki : I love that title by the way.

Bill: Of course, because there's a state, right? Because I drew that, that, that phrase is out there. Does he have, does he have what it takes everyone does, everyone has it.

Bill: You know, here's the thing I was thinking about this recently. So I'm working with a group called Transcending Cancers. So there are they, one of the people who started it was a client of mine... her husband got stage four cancer diagnosed with stage four cancer and I was coaching or just in memoir writing. She lives in New Zealand and I, and, but in the coaching shifted for me to help deal her with the emotional, what she was going through, turns out what I talked to her about. I don't remember what it was, but was what they use to get through that. And apparently he got through that and it, and very spiritual kind of people. And they wanted to give creative platform to help people deal with the emotional, spiritual challenges of cancer, both the people who have it and the people who are living with those people, because it's a whole thing if your partner, okay.

Bill: So they said, will you come and teach, Fearless Writing to people who are part of this community I said, I'd love to. So I gave this free talk and they're like, oh, it's really good. But it seemed geared towards people who already like to write. We think a lot of people don't know how to write or don't see themselves as writers yet. Could you talk to people who don't see themselves as writers who could use writing as a tool to heal from cancer. And as soon as they asked me that, I said, I absolutely can. Yes I can. But here's the interesting thing. I'd never done that before. And I had not a single idea of what I would say to them, but I was absolutely certain I could. And the reason was I already could feel within myself that acute interest in communicating why writing as a tool could be helpful to someone sort of cracked open by cancer as I think of it.

Bill: And so I, even though I had no idea how to do it, I had never done it. I could feel within me the thing that would, that would give me all the particulars, the details of that talk that would come. But I already had within me what I needed to give that talk, which was my interest... and then my imagination source energy, God, whatever language you want, that gives me all the ideas I need, but I already had the interest and I had like intense interest. And once I have that, we're good. We're good. And I think that, you know, and it's beautiful, isn't it?

Bill: But I think what happens with a lot of people is if there's one thing that makes me a professional creative person is I know that's enough. Like I don't. And I think people get that and they think, well, so what did I'm interested? Everybody's interested. Like, why is that important It is like, that is the gold, that's where it is. But you have to know it as the gold and you have to trust it's the gold or else... you don't think you have anything.

Vikki: I love it. I always get so energized when I talk with you. I'm like, I know, I feel that I have that experience with this book. The idea for my book, it literally was in my head for over a year. I think I would kind of talked a little bit about it with you, but this was not the first book I was going to write. I was working on historical fiction and and then all of a sudden it was like this burning need. I had to get it done. I just couldn't stop thinking about it. If I think it's on, I got pushed from some other really great people in self publishing, get it out, let's just get it out and do it. Right. And, that burning, like that feeling, it's almost like central, like, you know, you're doing what you've been called to do. It's the most phenomenal experience to live there all the time. But you know that the date comes in, right?

Bill: You know, I will tell you Vikki. I have decided, yes, of course it's, it's easier to be focused like when it's just you and the blank page. Right. But what I've realized is I think my career as a writer grows based more, not on what I do when I'm writing, because that I get, like, at this point, that's easy in a way, it's what I'm doing when I'm not writing and I'm not talking about marketing and that kind of stuff, but just how I spend my days thinking and focused, the more I can stay in that same kind of positive, you know what it's like, it's really seeing myself as the creative... this is a phrase my wife gave... can only give it to credit where credit's due. This is it's actually, there's a essay called this in the author magazine now written by my wife, Jen, but she gave with the language.

Bill: I love it. "That you're the creative center of your life." And so like your creating your life in the same way, I face a blank page and fill that the way I want to see my whole life. That way, the more I see my life, that way, the happier I am, the more th the more on purpose I live.

Bill: But the more I start seeing things like just sort of happening to me and things are out of my control and what the choices I make don't really affect these things. The more unhappy I get and the less involved I am in my life. So I try to stay in that authorship frame of mind as much as possible. And it's been, it's been the great challenge of my life. I think staying there, but it can be done. You just have to believe that that's where you need to live from.

Vikki: Yeah. And it's something I'm working on every day. Cause you know, I'm still doing the day job. I'm still. Yeah. Yeah. But I actually worked for a university and I'm not a librarian for that university. They didn't hire me as a librarian. I, I coach and mentor students to finish their bachelor's degree in IT. And so I have a caseload of over a hundred students that I speak to every week... and motivation them. So it's wonderful. And I enjoy it. I do do projects for the university library, but they wanted to hire me, but they wanted to relocate me. And I'm like, I'm a Northwest gal. I'm never relocating. I have to be 20 minutes away from my kids and that's not happening. Right. So I say where I am... and that's another reason why this book was important for me because I wanted to share in the writer's community, what I can't share in my university community with students...

Vikki: The amazing tips and techniques that librarians have... . but for me, I fantasize about what if I could just not do that day job. And it was always about writing. And I came to an epiphany because I started to get really frustrated and I wasn't doing great with mentoring my students. And, that's still a passion for me. And I told my husband the other day, I said, you know what I have to really refocus this. That's everything I do in my day is me giving back to someone because I'm a giver I love to share and serve. And I wanted to focus all my serving on the writing community. And I kind of started losing track of serving my students and I have to be able to serve everybody, whoever it is I talk to I'm going to serve and help. Right? So that focus shift is so important. Yeah.

Bill: And I think it's, I think as we, as I think as time rolls along and we grow our focus shifts and I think it's important, I've acted as a chapter in Everyone Has What It Takes where I talk about keeping up with yourself, you know, there's a phrase, you know, get out of your comfort zone. And I actually don't agree with that. I think your job is to keep up with your comfort zone. I think you, it keeps growing and often we stay where we were. And so, you know, the fact that you wanted to shift to all writing, what that was, I think was a clue to you, that you were wanting something more. Now it may be that you would like to make all your, your living and you could, you would, but you'd have to say I'm really going to do that.

Bill: And I need to now think creatively about how, what that would look like and think about and understand that will take some time... but also may mean that the way you work with your students may want to evolve and you may want to let yourself go deeper with, you know, but if you're asking there's something more you're wanting, because what happens is you work with writers and you recognize something. And you're like, oh, this is interesting. I want more of this. And I go through that too, in the nature of, you know, the kind of way I used to interview people and it's changed a lot as my own thinking has changed and my writing has changed. And so you got to keep up with yourself, you know, because you will discover something. And you're like, " Hey, I really liked that. I don't want it to be sporadic.

Bill: I would like it to be all the time." Cause why, why not? Why aren't we not here I know you're here to serve, but let me tell you something, you're here to serve you by which I mean, even as you go and help people, you're helping yourself. Don't, don't pretend you're not, you grow as you help. You are expanding them saying, right. I mean, I, I love helping people, but I it's because it's exciting and interesting to me and the connection between them of me and them is so fulfilling, but it's in the end, but the one who's served, I know for fact is me and my life because of that experience.

Vikki: Thank you for bringing that background. This is like, I hope my listeners are following all this and you're getting over free. All right. That's right.

Bill: This cost big bucks usually, but we're doing it for free.

Vikki: There's so many things left to talk a little bit about the Fearless Writing. Cause I want to talk with you about my experience with you with the, I feel like it was a bit of a coaching experience that I don't think you knew you were helping me with. Let's let's lay the foundation for that. So Bill asked me to write a little bit about my, my book for his magazine, but not... in the personal narrative and not necessarily as the book, which I love to do. And it was a good challenge. And I started it and I thought some of my friends in my writer's group who are super writers, they reviewed it and they gave me some insight and I changed some things around.

Vikki: Sent it to Bill. Bill gave me really great feedback, but some of that feedback pushed me really hard because some of the narrative that I was talking about, I'm not free to talk about at the point in my life and Bill picked up on it.

Vikki: And so he's like we got to work on this a little bit. So it was challenging. But by the end of it, I'm so happy with where we ended up with that article. And I just want to tell you, thank you. Cause when I, when I emailed you and said, I am, look, I did this fearlessly. It was genuine. We have to oftentimes do some introspective work and tell stories that might be challenging and finding a way to do that with respect to possible others in this world. You know, that that's it for me... it is a big challenge for writers.

Bill: It's a challenge for a lot of people. You know, I only write about my own life, you know, my own experiences. And the thing I've learned to do is that if the point of the story is how life affected me, how, how I reacted to life and life involves other people, no judgment on them. Like they're just living their life, doing their thing. You know, you described an experience with someone who did some stuff he tryna done, but guarantee this... he thought he was doing the right thing. Everyone who does anything thinks they're doing the right. This is the heart it's hard to get.

Bill: Oh, they always do. Even when I've done things looking, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But at the time it seemed to make right. And but if, if it, the focus is I had this experience, whether it's with a dog or a tree or a person, and this is what, this is how I changed from it. This is what I learned from it. How I grew from it. People rarely take offense because it's so much of even when they're in the story, because it's about what you, what you went through and when you can really make it about that, it's pretty, you're pretty safe now.

Bill: There's always people out there, but I think it's pretty hard for it where people take offense is when you start telling their story and saying, why you think, you know, they did, why they did what or judging them or calling them bad people. If you can leave all that. I just say, this is what happened. This is my experience. This is how I grew. You're in pretty good shape. And also, and also what, one of the reasons I wanted to work with these people who are, who have cancer, is people with cancer often have some very painful stories from their past, right? And we all do look, we all do. We all do.

Vikki: But cancer will bring up a lot of that. If there's a huge process that goes through with the healing cancer. I went through it with my mother-in-law, twice, with her cancer treatments with her. So I've walked this road from her.

Bill: Oh, It's, it's intense. Right? And it's intense. And, and, but the thing about grief and pain is it is a moment when life has your attention. And I, I, didn't one of the best stories I wrote as a young young man was about my heart...my first real true heartbreak, like legitimate, you know, it was around someone I'm not married to, but I didn't know at the time that we weren't coming. And, you know, even though it was painful, I never felt so alive in a way in truth. Cause I was like really present. And it, wasn't just all my sort of daydreams and there's nothing wrong with that. But boy, life had my attention and it seemed like the best thing to write about was when I was in pain, it was more to write. Well, it's obviously more to write about than that, but I think it's very important to go back to those moments and understand why life had your attention. And usually Vikki, this is the, this is the deep truth I've learned from running about my own life. The pain you feel is not from what happened, but from how you interpreted it, not what happened because if you have something happen and you, and you say, therefore, I have no voice. Therefore the people aren't trustworthy, therefore I'm weak. Therefore I'm not valuable. That's the pain, not the thing. And the challenge is to go back and tell the story differently.

Vikki: Yeah, yeah. Bill had me do. So this whole process of explaining why I stopped writing at, for awhile. And and I couldn't get past that point. I wanted, I didn't know how to share the healing part of it because the healing is so multifaceted. Right? And I'm like you only gave me like how many word counts? Right?

Vikki: You know and it was so funny. Cause once again, I credit my writer's group because I was invited into this writer's group and they're all older than me. they invited me in, before I ever published, they heard I was writing. They listened to some of my podcasts, they are a local group. And they have helped me like write past all these fears and all of this anxiety and everything. And so that's really where a lot of my healing started only a few years ago of feeling confident that my voice can rebound or be important than have it be hurt again. So obviously I'm going to credit that. So, so that was just such a great experience. So thank you. I don't know if any of us know sometimes how we help others unless we communicate that. Right? And so it's important for me to make sure you know, that you really helped me through that process.

Bill: Thank You. I appreciate it. You know, I like to help people. Sometimes they tell me I've helped them. I've had people come up and say, "I really needed this book," but most of the people you will help.

Bill: You know, there's a story in, there's a chapter called Earthly Powers in the book about my, my uncle who was in a wheelchair. And, and then my really involves James Joyce and Anthony Burgess, these two writers that were influential, but it ends with this scene where I'm, I'm seeing this man in a wheelchair when I was sitting with Jack in this big, food court in this mall and the perception of him, he was quadriplegic I think, and there was something and I won't go into it, but seeing him something, the value of life hit me in a certain way. And I'll, and you'll have to read the piece to understand it.

Bill: But one of the things I can't is he'll never know how he helped me. Just the sight of him. Anthony Burgess will never know how he helped me. There were so many people who will never know that in the smallest things, they taught me something I've learned from it. And I think that's 99% of the, of the help we get from people is totally unknown to it. But know that it's happening all the time, know that your work is reaching people in way that, you know, you know, you can't really, I mean, it was, it was Richard Bach first told me that. And he was like, and he's helped me reached a lot of people. That guy, he wrote a book in the early seventies, Jonathan Livingston Seagull that went ballistic, you know, 40 million copies or something. And he was like, you know, you don't, someone's going to pick your book up. You'll never hear from them. They'll never tell you, but it's going to change your life. But I do believe on some level, if I tune in, I can feel it.

Vikki: I do believe that. I really believe that with all my heart. I believe that we can tune into it. And, all of that to say, listeners, when you hear an author on my podcast that you've fallen in love with, or you read their book or whatever, I always encourage you, let them know, let them know. We'd love to hear from you. We're starving to know.

Bill: We don't hear, I don't hear from people much. I mean, I do hear some, but you know, they think people are shy and they don't do it, but I love hearing from people.

Vikki: It really does. And so Bill let's talk... because I will be getting this out, hopefully before I go on vacation at the end of this month. So two weeks, I'm so excited. I'm unplugging on vacation. So I'm so excited, but give us what you have kind of what, it's, what we can look forward to the next couple of months. My listeners can go onto my show notes and find your information.

Bill: Not a lot. The summer kind of is quiet. I'm going to be teaching the, at the Pacific Northwest Writers Associations Conference. So you can, well actually, oh no, I take it back because a couple of things, so that the PWA is the end of September and I'll be doing three classes there.

Vikki: And if that's going to be face to face or virtual, now we're doing it virtual, unfortunately.

Bill: That's right. And also through Writer's Digest in September, I will be doing virtual. So no matter where you are in this great, a Fearless Writing class workshop, and then a Fearless Marketing workshop, back-to-back you can sign it for one or both. Yeah. Fearless market marketing. I love teaching that this is not about how to market, but how to use your same... there is, but not like here are the six things you have to do, but how to use your same writers' imagination in the marketing that you do in the writing. And you can do it.

Bill: That would be great. It's a, so that's to Writer's Digest and we hope to be doing one a month of those that's our plan. And then the Transcending Cancer. I don't know when that's, we're still feeling out when that's going to begin, but we're going to, that'll probably be getting in the fall to where I'll be doing some regular stuff through them. So that's kind of what I'm, that's what I know for sure right now I'll be doing and my well and my podcast every week, every week.

Bill: So if you go to Williamknower.com that has links to sort of everything, the podcast, author magazine... I'm writing... I write a essay twice a week for author magazine about writing and creativity. And you know, I coach people. So if you want to do one-on-one coaching, there's links for that too. But it's all at Williamknower.com.

Bill: And so every week, every Tuesday I do a podcast sometimes just live recorded, live. It's not just like what we're doing and I pre-record it and put it up every week.

Vikki: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I feel I have felt blessed having you in my life the three years. Well, two years, one year, I don't know, two years. Yeah. A year. One of the most profound things that from our last episode, so in 80, I was still debating. I'm still debating about my fiction books. So how I'm going to publish it. I'm not worried about it at this point. I'm like, it'll just organically happen. I might find an agent. I might not whatever. Now that I've self published I kind of know I can do that too. So I'm kind of, I'm at a good place, but I remember I was really debating about it. And you said don't pursue, I mean, don't not pursue that. I don't think that's how you thought it had a fear. And I was like, man, you just....

Bill: Never do anything out of fear. Right? Nothing out of fear. So there's nothing wrong with publishing, but don't independent publish out of fear of rejection from traditional partners. I will say this about traditional publishing... The goal is to find people who you're, you know, once you find the right people, it's as easy as independent publishing, easy, easier, I must say, because they do so much work. Right? And you do most of the right and they, you know, you, I do most of the marketing, let's be honest, but that can change. But, but it's, but you have to find the right people. And it's just like finding a spouse, finding a friend it's the same process. And the way to look at it is you have a dream of publishing a book and agents and editors have dreams of publishing books, too. They have a dream of publishing books they like.

Bill: Everybody wants the book to succeed. It's just the overlapping dreams... allow it to come. You're not looking. You're looking for someone who's dreaming the same dream as you. And when you meet them, oh, it's so much easier. Not like, oh, I got to prove I'm good enough. I got to, I don't know how to do that. But I do know how to find people who are lined up with me. And once you do it's it goes, it goes much... It goes quite effortlessly if they're the right people. So that's something to hold in mind. You know...

Vikki: I believe, I believe that if it's meant to be that way, it'll it'll happen, right I'm just not stressed about any of that anymore, but I've learned so much, this will be 109 podcasts. So I know, and I'm even slowing down, but not at 109 authors that I've discussed the topic with about how they write, how they've got published, that whole journey. It's been such a great, phenomenal experience for my growth. And hopefully others, matter of fact, I'll have a couple of authors come on that I didn't know. They had listened to the podcast and like, I really want to be on your podcast. So rewarding to have that opportunity. And people say, I've listened and I want to be honest.

Bill: That's great. You're learning. I started interviewing authors. There were video interviews. I still do video interviews, but they, I did a lot of video interviews and the reason was I wanted to be, I wasn't having any success as a writer. I was very frustrated with it, but I knew it wasn't because I didn't know how to write. I knew I could write, but like for whatever reason it wasn't happening, but I want it to just be sitting in the room with someone who was flourishing. It's like, what is that? Like, what is it like to, like, what does it feel like What are they, what's the energy. What's the point of view What's the mindset? I just wanted to sort of like tune myself to them, not to write their books, but just tuning in. So it was very helpful for me too.

Vikki: It's been the best education. My husband laughed at me because I decided to do all this and not do my doctorate. And he's like, you're basically getting a doctorate.

Bill: In real world experience, baby!

Vikki & Bill: It's also exhausting, because there's commitment that I do on the end of it. Right? Absolutely. Well, Bill, thank you so much for being here. And it's been a pleasure speaking with you again. So everybody go to Bill's website, make sure you join him in those workshops. I think that it will be helpful. You'll probably see me there. If you get a few people, I'll probably be there. Excellent. And we will have you come back when your next book is out, Bill.

Bill: Yes, I'm writing it now. So when it comes out, we'll, it's more of creativity, stuff, more creativity. That's what I do

Vikki: Awesome, Awesome, thanks so much for being here. Thank you.

Vikki: Thank you for listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Make sure you jump on the show notes and find the author, buy their books, write a review. And most importantly, you can find out more about me on my projects at one of my two websites, www.squishpen.com or theauthorslibrarian.com. And until next time, this is Vikki J. Carter, The Authors Librarian signing off.